In a lengthy interview with Italian television channel Rai 3, while discussing the migrant camps and above all the accusations that the Albanian government has ties to crime, Prime Minister Edi Rama also responded to specific accusations from his former deputy, Arben Ahmetaj. Ahmetaj, speaking on Rai 3, claimed he personally witnessed Rama meeting criminals in his office.
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| Edi Rama and Giorgio Mottola in the former's office in the RAI3 interview |
"Rama meets them even in his office. I refused to participate. I saw mafia bosses there with my own eyes," Ahmetaj stated in this documentary while sitting at a table with the journalist, eating.
Rama emphasized that he meets many people, and if it is discovered that someone is not lawful, it is the job of the justice system to act.
"Excuse me, I meet many people and I am responsible for what I do myself and for who people are when they come to me. Then, if it is discovered that someone is not lawful, it is up to the justice system to do its job and, of course, it is up to me, the government, and the administration to distance themselves. If I tell you, excuse me, but you are meeting with Francesco Becchetti, who is a criminal, what does that mean? You are doing your job," said the Prime Minister.
Rai 3: We spoke with a former significant figure in your government who claims that in past years, often during official government meetings, he warned about the spread of cannabis and that you said it would be a "boost," an important contribution to the economy, that it would develop the Albanians. Is this true?
PM: I don't know who you spoke with, but I wouldn't trust much of what those who no longer have the warmth of power's chair say. That's how I see it. These are not people to be taken seriously, but only to be pitied.
Rai 3: The same person claims that the heads of Albanian criminal organizations have also come to this office and that you met them here.
PM: The same source.
Rai 3: Yes.
PM: Then, it must be a completely tainted source and must have issues with the justice system.
Rai 3: Nevertheless, they held very important positions in your governments.
PM: Ah! We have a saying in Albania, "there is no forest without pigs."
Rai 3: But is it true or not that you have met figures of organized crime in Albania?
PM: I will tell you something, which is what made your report disgusting.
Rai 3: Nevertheless, I am here to hear your opinion.
PM: Let me tell you this. Since the Romans, our civilization has solved this problem. The burden lies on the accuser to present the evidence, not on the accused, because, if I accuse you now or ask you an innocent but serious question: "Excuse me, have you been paid by Becchetti?" Is it your job to prove it or mine to prove it? Then, if I ask you this question, you will say: "Of course not." But this is not the way to inform the public, because, in the meantime, if I ask you this question, the public will start to think, "hmm," because, generally, human beings are much more inclined to believe lies than truths. In most cases, the truths are boring, they do not make news; lies, meanwhile, are entertaining, they make news and, then, all politicians are corrupt, all politicians are criminals. So, why not, even the heads of criminal organizations have come here, and I sketch while they lay out their trafficking maps in front of me. It would make a good movie.
Rai 3: Certainly, a specific detail about the figure of Erebus (the god of crime) Agasi, meaning Erebus Agasi may have some reports...
PM: Excuse me, but how can we conduct an interview, with you representing a famous program in Italy, which has done investigations that have made surprising discoveries, thus public service, and with me being the Prime Minister of Albania, and we bring the conversation to such a low level and talk about people? Meaning, we take names of people, who are not even present, do not hold positions or titles, people who have their own lives, it is not possible.
Rai 3: I ask you a question, your answer can be convincing.
PM: My answer is this: "It is not in the public interest to take the names of people, who have their own lives, who are at their jobs, who have nothing to do with your work, with my work, which is a serious job, where serious matters are truly discussed, and then make them an object."
Rai 3: But even the Albanian media talk about Agasi as the shadow man of your power. Is it so or not?
PM: No. The Albanian media do not make a distinction. Between "Report" and its counterpart in Albania, I choose Report. Meaning, for me the disgust of Report is honey compared to the disgust of your counterpart here in Albania. The Albanian media are not an argument for this. When I speak with you, since you mentioned the architects, I speak with someone who represents a category that, let's say, was created by Montanelli, not a category created by Enver Hoxha.
Rai3: Getting more specific about things for which there is documented evidence: your meetings with Luftar Hysa. Why did you meet with Luftar Hysa here in the year...
PM: Another name mentioned as if it were nothing. Excuse me, but I don't want to miss the opportunity to be on your broadcast by mentioning names that I don't even know what they mean or who they are.
Rai3: According to Canadian authorities, he is one of the biggest money launderers and a member of the gambling cartel. Here in Albania, he was granted a concession for a casino, so we are talking about very concrete facts and circumstances.
PM: Let me tell you this, you talk about Engjëll Agaçi, and that was the peak of your show.
Rai3: I will ask you questions about Agaçi.
PM: Meanwhile, you are talking to me about names that don't belong here. It is an insult to intelligence to mention names.
Rai3: But, for me as a journalist, the fact that the head of the Albanian Council of Ministers meets with a figure who is later discovered to be the money launderer of the Sinaloa cartel and one of the most important members, for me that is news, and I will ask you about it. I wouldn't be doing my job well if I didn't ask you.
PM: Excuse me, I meet many people and I am responsible for what I do myself and for who people are when they come to me. Then, if it is discovered that someone is not lawful, it is up to the justice system to do its job and, of course, it is up to me, the government, and the administration to distance themselves. If I tell you, excuse me, but you are meeting with Francesco Becchetti, who is a criminal, what does that mean? You are doing your job.
Rai3: I, however, am a journalist and interview both criminals and non-criminals, whereas you, as a prime minister, should not meet with criminals.
PM: I do not meet with criminals, alright? This is offensive.
Rai3: So, do you distance yourself from Luftar Hysa?
PM: I don’t even know who he is, alright? I don’t know who he is. I have met many people, I repeat, many people, Albanians who come and go, who want to meet, to see, with friends and others. They are told, "alright, come, what will you do, how will you do it," etc. However, the fact that a person even in government or a person coming from outside, is found tomorrow to be corrupt does not make me responsible for meeting them or for meeting someone else. So, this is how journalism is done that dirties, that dirties, because...
Rai3: No, it doesn't dirty, because now I will ask you this question. Now that you know who Luftar Hysa is, will you cancel his casino concession?
Will you cancel the license for Valona Construction, which according to Canadian authorities, is Hysa's shell company?
PM: Excuse me, first of all, I neither grant nor cancel concessions or anything else.
Rai3: But you have a state post.
PM: Excuse me, but I am not the state; I am the Prime Minister. The state has its own structures, its own administration, as I said earlier. For example, an Italian criminal who was sentenced here to 17 years turned to the court for a problem that, according to him, was created by us while he was laundering money and used one of my tweets, posted on Twitter, as pressure against the freedom of the press. So, everything must go through the judicial route, through the institutional route for every subject, for everything, because investigations are one thing, judicial processes are another, and final court decisions are something else. If you go out swinging a sword and speak lightly, you then find yourself in very uncomfortable situations from the state's perspective.
Rai3: So, since you have granted a concession, have you initiated an investigation into this company?
PM: You are telling me something I am only now finding out because you are telling me. I repeat, once again, the Albanian state does not grant concessions, does not issue permits, does not give anything to criminals. Then, if someone turns out to be a person who has to answer before the justice system for affairs, as happens in Italy every month, you would never dare to say, "therefore, for this, the Italian Prime Minister who met with that person is a criminal."
Rai3: Yes, but when it is later revealed that there is an international investigation, the activities of these commercial companies are suspended if they are suspected of being mafiosi, which means that if they are mafiosi, there is no need for a judicial process.
PM: Once again, as we add words...
Rai3: No, I don’t want to add anything.
PM: ... to this. You are trying to steer the interview in the direction you want, which means continuing to insist on the previous program, that here there is a story of criminals, a story of dark characters, and so on.
Rai3: If the Italian Prime Minister met with a person who laundered money for the Mexican cartels, I would ask repeated, rapid-fire questions just about this aspect.
PM: I understand.
Rai3: So, it has nothing to do with you and Albania.
PM: I understand, but I repeat. I have not met any money launderer of any kind from any side. I have met with Albanians who have come to me, told me they intended to develop something, and I told them: "Do as you wish, the law and the paths are clear." And it does not seem to me that anyone has gained anything as a favor. Then, if it turns out that someone is tainted, then there are laws here. There is confiscation, there is one thing or another. But it is entirely different, meaning it does not come from me. It is justice, it is...